Monday, April 29, 2013

Equestria Daily, Fanfiction, and You: A Survey: A Response

I assume most people who visit this blog also visit Equestria Daily on a regular or semi-regular basis.  That being the case, I'm guessing you've all already seen this post, with its survey about the future of fanfiction on EqD.  If you haven't already taken it, you should definitely find a little free time to go do that; I've already done so, but I thought I'd take a little time to lay out my opinions on a few of the broader questions, as summarized by me, in a more public place.  Below the break, as always.



>Should fanfiction continue to be posted on EqD?

Look, fanfiction is the red-headed stepchild of the fandom; I get it.  There are a lot of reasons for this: it's faster and easier to consume media like pictures, music, and videos than literature; fanfiction as a word carries a great deal of stigma; because the barrier to entry is lower (and because quality is harder for low-information creators and consumers to assess) with fanfiction than many other creative mediums, low-quality stories are both posted and praised at a much higher rate than typically occurs in those other mediums; lots and lots of people just don't read for pleasure; and on and on and on.  I understand, and I think most fanfic authors and readers do as well, that fanfiction is never going to be treated with anything approaching the reverence, or even the broad interest, that other media receive.

But for Pete's sake, no reasonable or intelligent person (traits that can suddenly be in short supply when one stops dealing with individual people and starts working with "the masses," as I'm well aware) could possibly conclude that there's any good reason--that there's any reason at all--why a site dedicated to FiM episodes, news, and fanworks would chose to start ignoring fanfiction entirely.  I don't understand why there's a "no fanfiction" button on the site in the first place, when there's not a "no drawfriends," "no comics," "no games," or "no PMVs" button.  Those buttons would all be asinine and useless--I can't recall the last time I watched a PMV via EqD, but I don't need a special search mode to get rid of them.  It's one to four posts a day, and I can just scroll right past; why, exactly, is it so hard for people to do the same thing with fanfics?

Anyway, I'm getting off-topic.  I'm hoping the question was put up just to mollify the irrationally angry and bibliophobic, and isn't being seriously considered.  But even if that's the case, the fact that it has to be asked at all is incredibly depressing to me.



>What sort of feedback should EqD pre-readers give?

Although the pre-readers' job is supposedly to chose high-quality fanfics to post, they often end up becoming surrogate editors, tasked with pointing out flaws and, if not helping authors fix their works, at least giving them a place to start.  The question being asked seems to be "given that it would probably speed up responses (which are tragically slow at the moment), would it be a good idea to cut the review part and just give an accept/reject response?"

I'm of two minds about this.  From what I've heard from the PRs, it's my understanding that somewhere between many and most of the fanfics they receive (this is just the ones that pass their filter, even) are obviously unsuitable for posting--major editing problems, the first two pages being nothing but the narrator relating his OC's backstory, that sort of thing.  For these, I think a one- or two-sentence rejection is probably sufficient, along with a link or three to some of the many editing and story-help services which exist in this fandom.  For authors whose stories are rejected for less immediately obvious reasons, however, I think the review-rejection is probably necessary.



>How many fanfics should be posted per day, and how should they be posted?

Although I didn't like it at first, I've grown much more understanding of story update group posts with the passage of time.  However, one thing that I've never liked about them is that a story's original post doesn't get bumped when a sequel contained withing that post begins or ends.  I know I've missed sequels to stories in the past because they were "hidden" in an update post, and I doubt I'm the only one.  I'd prefer to see any new story, and any completed story, regardless of sequel status, bump the original post.

Other than that, I don't have a real problem with the amount of fanfiction posted on EqD.  It's something like 1-3 new fanfics a day, I believe, which doesn't seem unreasonable for a site which is expressly only for highlighting selected works.  I wouldn't mind seeing a few more fanfic posts, personally, but I don't think the current level is wildly out of whack with where a reasonable person would conclude it "should" be.

There's also some mention of combining stories into group posts.  While this is a far less stupid idea now than it was a couple of years ago (then, most fanfics were in gdocs, and the comments section was the primary forum for feedback and author interaction; today, the stories are often on FiMfiction, and the EqD link directs such conversation there), I still don't like it.  I can't imagine any way it could be done which wouldn't shaft either all the stories, or all but the first posted, in terms of attention, nor can I imagine any way in which such conversation and feedback as still occurs on EqD wouldn't be dramatically reduced.



So yeah, those are my big thoughts on the matter.  I suppose we'll have to see what comes of it all.

26 comments:

  1. I've never really given thought to the "No Fanfiction Mode" before, but it does seem a bit silly. It's very rare that I read a fic simply after seeing it on EqD, but I still don't use it. Heck, I didn't even before I knew good fanfics existed!

    Considering how few fanfic posts there are each day, it seems easier to just skim over them - like I would do with the meetups - than to switch to a particular mode every time I visit the site. Then again, maybe that's just because I find some of those posts to be captivating in and of themselves, even if I never read the actual fics being promoted

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  2. I think the No Fanfiction Mode is an artifact from way back when EQD would bump a fic's post every single time it updated. Back then, fanfiction posts took up a huge portion of the blog (roughly 40-50% of posts in my admittedly vague memory), and it probably got overwhelming for people. Nowadays, though, I don't think it has much of a reason to still be around.

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  3. Oh, that was brief. :O I was hoping you'd weigh in on the survey, though.

    I agree about the updating thing. I never thought of that while taking the survey because I haven't been following enough currently-updating stories for it to be an issue.

    Also, I would totally rock a No PMV mode, though it might be moot since I follow EQD via RSS. Still, if there's anything that hasn't been interesting since 2011...

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    1. I don't know how to even respond to that. PMVs are what got me into this fandom. They're the reason I never get anything done!

      And not interesting since 2011? Try looking through my favorites, or this, or Paleo's Top 7, or this little gem that EqD ignored in favor of terrible shipping PMVs

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    2. Every time I see a PMV post, it's all "I copy pasted ponies over this song/movie trailer!" And I liked a few of those when I joined the fandom, but now I just don't see the point.

      This doesn't include original animations, however "original" some of them may be, of course. But scenes from the show over top music or whatnot? Dull.

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    3. To add to that (I also dislike amvs that don't use original animation; it just means you can edit with movie maker), another issuse is choice of music. If you're creating an amv, you also have to pick a song that fits with the tone of the show. A lot of big hits these days or well-known musical, TV theme songs, or film soundtracks simply do not (whatever your opinion of Gangnam Style or the soundtrack of Les Miserables is, I think we can all agree that they share very little in common with your average episode of FIM; the Reading Rainbow intro or Pollyana's theme (from Mother) are much better choices (they aren't stellar, they're just the first two that came to mind that at least evoke a similar feel).

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  4. The "No Fanfiction" button was originally implemented for obvious reasons: people's bias against fanfiction meaning they didn't want to be bothered with seeing it, and so Seth accommodated them. So why aren't there similar filters for other things, even though there seems to be a demand for it now? Simply because all of the non-fanfiction posts are grouped with a "not fanfiction" tag. The button merely filters by that tag. There aren't such tags for other types of posts, and going back to tag all the old posts is a pretty daunting task.

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    1. I also seem to recall:

      Someone mentioning in the discussion before the button appeared that folks who were actually working on the show had started dropping by EqD regularly and that they didn't even want to see the synopses of stories for legal reasons.

      After all, in the "Bronies" documentary, Amy Keating Rogers has EqD up on the computer behind her. If a synopsis caught her eye as a good idea for an episode, that would make her life suddenly a little difficult, seems to me. The "No Fanfiction" button solves that problem before it has a chance of happening. :)

      Mike

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    2. Six responses to "Do you read fanfiction?" were "I am legally unable to read fanfiction." Food for thought.

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    3. I just want to say, the whole "I can't read fanfiction, I work on the actual product" is a load of dung. These same people are perfectly happy to watch fan videos, look at fan art, and read fan-made comics, and somehow these don't give them ideas for episodes, but fanfiction magically can?

      I'm not saying they're lying, or even that they have any choice; I think it's actually in the writers' contracts that they can't read fanfiction. I'm just saying that it's insane to think that Past Sins poses any more of a threat to creative integrity than Double Rainboom.

      I don't even care if anyone associated with the show ever reads anything; I understand that it's easier for them to take in a thirty minute fan-made "episode" than a story with a six-figure word count, from my example above. I just hate it when they trot out something transparently nonsensical as an excuse.

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    4. There were, what, a couple thousand responses to that survey? Statistically speaking, more than six responses were blatant lies. I see no reason to assume any actual people need the No Fanfiction button for legal reasons.

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    5. There is an interesting story involving Marion Zimmer Bradley (of Mists of Avalon fame, among other things) and Fanfiction. This site has a pretty detailed summary of the incident: http://fanlore.org/wiki/Marion_Zimmer_Bradley_Fanfiction_Controversy

      The gist of it is that MZB was very involved in the fanfiction community of her own works, going so far as reading, giving feedback, and publishing anthologies. While writing the next installment of one of her series, she came across a fanfiction with a very similar premise to what she was writing. MZB offered symbolic compensation and a dedication to the writer, but the matter went to court, as he/she wanted co-author status (and matching compensation). Long story short, this caused the story to go unpublished, and changes to her relationship with the fanbase.

      Imagine that during the Season 1 production a story about Celestia disguising herself as a normal pony and going to Ponyville was being made. Being explicit about not reading fanfiction gives them plausible deniability, which would otherwise prevent the episode from ever being finished or aired.

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    6. Chris is right, though. We know damn well people involved in the show look at art and listen to music; those can and often do tell stories. Hell, they don't have to tell entire stories to present this kind of legal issue, just present some sort of original idea, character, situation, etc.

      The ghettoization of fanfic in this fandom is entirely due to this legal disclaimer. This is one part of why I can't wait for the show to be over. Yes, I actually care about fanfic more than the show it is based on. Not that I think it will ever be legitimate in the eyes of those who don't give a damn, of course.

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    7. Can't agree with that enough, PP.

      With the show becoming more disappointing as time goes on, I'm all for focusing on the good stuff and making the most of it.

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    8. I agree that is complete bullshit. Still, there is legal precedent, and fanfics allow the author to developed situations much more than a single image or (most) songs. If the only issue was with they being exposed to history concepts, all forms of fan interaction would have to be banned, least someone tries to sue the writers for an episode where Twilight learns to fly, since he obviously mentioned it on Twitter and tagged M.A. Larson.

      But the "fanfic guetto" has little to do with just the legal matters. For some reason it is seen as a lesser form of fan appreciation almost universally. For instance, George R.R. Martin hates fanfiction with a passion, but meanwhile hosts fan art on his site — despite most of his arguments against fanfiction applying to fan art. He is not alone in this among authors, or even fans.

      As someone that was prejudiced against fanfiction before MLP, I'd say it has to do with how it appears to be written more as wish fulfillment than other works. I know now that it can be written because of legitimate inspiration from the source material, but terrible fics seem to be much more visible than terrible art, and bad authors less self conscious than bad artists.

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    9. Of all fannish activities:

      Only stalking and fanfiction seem to have legal precedent attached to them...

      For my part, I've spent two decades lurking around the edges of being a professional writer since joining SFWA after my first three short story sales back in 1992. But the last two years writing Pony stuff, checking the stories that get through the process at EqD, reading the always-enlightening reviews and discussions here and on a couple Fimfiction pages--Aquillo, Bad Horse, and bookplayer spring alphabetically to mind--I've found more people straightforwardly dedicated to the art and craft of storytelling than I've come across anywhere else.

      So I shake my head in bewilderment at whatever stigma is attached to fanfiction. My life would be a much poorer place if I hadn't stumbled into this little section of it.

      Mike

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  5. Agreed on all points, Chris. I was somewhat torn by the later questions in the survey, where it was asking whether prereaders should do less feedback in order to speed up the process. On one hand, I would like faster responses, but on the other hand I like the fact that the prereaders take the time to tell you what's wrong with the fic. I certainly wouldn't want what the survey called a "yes/no" response, which sounds like a rejection of a fic without any sort of explanation.

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  6. "Look, fanfiction is the red-headed stepchild of the fandom; I get it."

    Have we got numbers from EqD or Bronycon on what fraction of fans have what interests? The numbers on YouTube videos are much higher than the numbers on stories, but it only takes a few minutes to watch a video.

    It seems that way at brony conventions, but it's odd. I think fan-fiction is the biggest fan-made part of most fandoms, like Star Trek or Harry Potter.

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    1. Given the sheer content on FinFiction, it doesn't seem unfair to speculate that attention is simply more divided among fanfiction. I mean, it seems weird to us that many fans will be almost oblivious to Cold in Guardez, The Descendant, or InsertAuthorHere, yet I am sure the majority probably are.

      And that's only out of the ones that can actually read...

      (harsh but fair)

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    2. As I recall, the latest fandom census had stats on how people enjoy creative works.

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    3. According to that census:

      —More people listen to fan music and watch PMVs than read fanfic
      —More people write fanfic than create music and PMVs

      Seems like supply and demand at work. If more authors are competing for fewer readers...

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  7. To be honest, I'm kind of sick of the bad rap people have given fanfiction in the past. It's just as important to the fandom as drawings, music, news, and those overpriced plush dolls and t-shirts, and all of those genres are just as capable of producing crap as someone with a keyboard. So why is this the only medium people get a button to filter out?

    Sorry, it's just...this is my craft. I can't even draw a stick figure straight. I can't sew anything. I can't edit a video, animate a scene, or compose a song. But I can write. That is what I want to contribute to the community, and seeing my work - others work - dismissed because of a few idiots who can't conceive of a fanfic that isn't similar to Cupcakes or My Little Dashie angers me to my fucking core.

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  8. This -- http://mlpchan.net/fic/res/2689.html -- /fic/ thread is relevant. Anything that I would want to say, or feel needs to be said, is already in there.

    This is a conversation as old as fandom, and in truth, I've long since stopped being bothered by the disdain towards fanfic and the "No Fanfiction" button. I just spend my days being annoyed at the prevailing culture where we need permission to use fan-art as a cover: soliciting the unsolicited is a mad irony at its finest.

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    1. I really don't think you can equate the unsolicited use of characters from a mass-market television show with corporate sponsors, accompanying merchandise, and monetary backing with the unsolicited use of a drawing some guy made in his free time.

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  9. I'm late to the party (hey, finals are coming up), but I'll leave my thoughts.

    "low-quality stories are both posted and praised at a much higher rate than typically occurs in those other mediums"

    I'm not convinced this is true. Not that bad fanfiction isn't never praised to the skies, but there isn't much difference for me between how good people are for differentiating the quality of fanfilms or fanmusic than for fanfiction.

    What I do think is true is that fanfiction's influence on the fandom in general has decreased with each passing season. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places, but that's the impression I'm left with. In the past, Progress used to have an impact, now I days I'm don't think anyone even talks about it. Think of the best known writers (not best) of the past (Kkat, Pen Stroke, Andrew Talon, Conner Cogwork, come to mind) and think how well-known they were. Then look at the best known one now a days (I can't even think of anyone) and compare it to other parts of the fandom. I've seen quite a bit of fanart of people like Mandopony, Veggie55, or Pixelkitty. I can't even remember the last time I saw a piece of fanart of a fanfict that wasn't a commission or wasn't Fallout: Equestria.

    To be honest, I'd probably be more accepting of fanfiction being the low man on the fandom totem pole (because there is a lot of junk that deserves to be condemned) if

    a) a number of staff members hadn't praised people in other parts of the fandom for their fanwork.

    b) I was convinced that similar standards set by the pre-readers existed for all other things they post. (I don't think they have pre-listerners anymore, not that I really check out the music on EQD). It's why a lot of animated crap, artwork with poor draftsmanship, and one-note comics get posted.

    It's these two factors, that annoy me the most.

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    1. EqD still has pre-listeners. I know for a fact that Koroshi-Ya's one of 'em

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